While waiting around for tonight's game with the Nets, I have some questions for you, and I sincerely hope you'll ALL answer, regardless of how you feel. It's no secret that I've been closely monitoring activity on this blog, with an eye toward determining (1) how to improve it and (2) whether it's a worthwhile long-term venture.
So far, the positive things seem to be the civil atmosphere (which is definitely enforceable) and the number of people who have looked at the site (nearly 4,000 "views" in nearly three weeks). The less positive thing is that relatively few of the 4,000 views have resulted in ongoing contributors.
The 20-or-so who have signed up are MUCH appreciated and, frankly, represent a major chunk of the cream of the posting crop as far as I'm concerned. But, even if a few more come on board with the start of the season, it's unfair to expect a group of two dozen or even three dozen people to provide the ongoing flow of communication that keeps a site lively, interesting, and (hopefully in the long run) compelling.
I'm already sensing a leveling off in energy on the site. Yes, I understand that the start of the season will provide a boost. But I've received good advice from some of you that has helped me to realize that the nature of a blog creates a sort of "Robin Hood and His Merry Men" structure that is limiting. Fun in some ways, but limiting.
I started the blog by posting some of my own thoughts and inviting others to respond. Which you did...and in very interesting ways. And you know I'm never going to be bashful about expressing my thoughts, whatever the format. But frankly, I miss the message board format, which enables me to respond to thoughts that others initiate as well as vice versa. I've tried to replicate it via "Omnibus" threads, but it's unwieldy. And only the most recent thread is very visible, as the others get buried.
All of which leads me to one conclusion. Either I need to continue the blog pretty much as is and accept the blog's limitations; or I need to shift to a message board format. Frankly, I'm leaning toward the message board idea, but not without some reservations and some questions that you can help me answer. (I've already got a trial message board up-and-running, but I'm not yet giving out the URL because I'm not sure whether it will ever see the light of day, and I'm experimenting and familiarizing myself with it. And, by the way, that board does facilitate easy banning by IP number and seems to offer most of the features provided by Boston.com.)
My first and most obvious reservation is that starting my own message board would put me in direct competition with Boston.com...the very thing you know I've studiously been avoiding. I've been a part of the Boston.com board for many years now and have tried to support that board unwaveringly. Frankly, I'd feel like a bit of a traitor by leaving (although I have told them privately for some time that it could be a possibility). Legally, I guess there would be nothing to keep me from continuing to post there too, but I'd feel like a cross between a hypocrite and someone with a severe conflict of interest. So it would probably be a matter of my cutting the cord completely.
My second reservation is the amount of time it would take me to market, administer, and moderate a message board that I hope would attract a large number of posters over time. At present, I can handle the blog plus running my small company and fulfilling personal obligations. At this stage of my life, I don't depend on the company for very much, but running a message board the "right" way would definitely compromise my attention to the company to some extent—even if I had volunteer help with the moderation (which wouldn't necessarily be as smooth as it might sound because of the necessity of ensuring consistency in the moderating).
My third reservation relates to the fact that the blog service I'm using not only makes it possible for me to run advertising but also provides the advertising. And I know of no message board service that makes it possible to advertise, to say nothing of providing the advertising. (I would not be prepared to schlep around looking for sponsors.) Besides, with around 4,000 "hits" on the blog so far, I've made a grand total of $1.84 on the advertising. (Advertising revenue depends mainly on how many people click on the ads, not how many view the site.) So advertising is VASTLY overrated as a potential ource of revenue to defray expenses or substitute for income from my company.
My assumption is that, if I started a message board, most people who visit it would also stay on Boston.com, which would be fine. (I'd prefer to be able to do it myself, although I wouldn't.) I'm confident enough in being able to provide and encourage the types of content and support that would make Sam's Message Board a worthy venture.
So here are my questions, and I hope you'll be brutally frank in answering them:
1. Do you think a message board would offer YOU sufficiently more than the blog for me to go to the time and effort to establish a message board?
2. Do you think the main reason to consider joining a Sam's Miessage Board would be enhanced civility, or could you envision other ways in which it might be superior to Boston.com? (And, if the latter, can you explain how?)
3. If I started a message board, would you be confident enough in its potential to take a chance and pay $25 for the first year (via Paypal) to join? (The plan would be to charge $25 per year, subject to change with inflation. Note that I'm not considering any revenue alternative such as advertising for the reasons stated above. It's either charge $25 per member per year or forget it.)
If I'm going to go the message board route, I'd like to do so as early as possible in the the new season; so I'll appreciate your inputs as soon as it's convenient.
By the way, a one-month's free trial is a possibility I've already considered. My concerns are that (1) the message board would be in its fledgling stage during that first month, so it wouldn't be fairly representative of the value that the message board could represent over time; and (2) I'd have to investigate resources for helping me keep track of when to start billing a given user for continuing beyond the month.
Thanks for reading through all of this. I hope it'll be the last lengthy non-basketball post.
And thanks in advance for your help.
Sam
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22 comments:
Sam,
Several responses, which are partly based on my last comment:
(1) I don't find myself yearning for a message board format all that much. If you wanted to set one up, I'd be happy to participate. But celticsblog has forums, BDC still has forums, realGM has forums. There are forums options. Frankly, I would enjoy having another intelligent, creative Celtics blogger on the internet to follow. Jeff Clark does a good job; celticshub does a good job; and there have been a few others (The Shamrock Headband was great before they disbanded). But we could certainly use more, and yours would be a valuable voice.
(2) Yes, the main reason is enhanced civility. This is not something to take lightly, as I'm sure you know. A board where the average post/thread are intelligent and civil is a pleasure to participate in and is likely to keep me coming back; the opposite is not. Furthermore, it's possible that you might find a message board software package that offers greater functionality than BDC does. I liked the BDC's old software much better than I like the redesign.
(3) I won't pay for a Celtics board or blog. You all are great, but there's plenty of excellent free content on the internet and I'm not about to start paying for it, besides through my occasional ad-clicks.
Let me point out that I think that if you get this blog going, and start to post frequently (perhaps with a few trusted, intelligent coauthors), then as the Celtics season starts, more and more people will start to notice you through Google searches.
In addition, if you decide to get serious about the blog, you should write to Jeff Clark, the CelticsHub people, and Henry Abbott. The blogosphere is a very supportive community, not overtly competitive. Henry Abbott frequently links to CelticsBlog and CelticsHub, CelticsBlog frequently links to Hub and True Hoop, and so on. CelticsBlog and True Hoop will add your blog to their daily reading lists and will link to those articles of yours that they find interesting.
Your readership could increase exponentially. It still will probably provide at best only modest supplemental income, more probably only token income. But it would still be both more fun for us and gratifying for you to have more regular readers and participants.
Best,
dslack
Thanks Dalsck. Very helpful. Actually it will be much easier to post blog-type content once the season gets under way. Right now, given that so many people can't even watch the games right now, a dip in posting energy is not shocking.
The main thing I want to do is to make it either valuable blog or a valuable message board, without the equivocation.
I'll look forward to hearing from others (and to mosquito-zapping the lunatic fringe as it buzzes around).
Thanks again,
Sam
I spent nearly two years at celtic-nation.com and really enjoyed the simple message board format... the give and take... the intimate nature of relationships that developed over time. It was quite addictive and became much like family with loyal posters from all over the world.
Unfortunately it became a very dysfunctional family when the founder lost interest and stopped posting leaving leadership in the hands of a dispirited corp of mods who drifted off, like a sinking ship w/o a captain.
You can visit it now and see how shabby it looks. Flashy/glittery interactive format now but empty and lots of mods on paper but few poster. (Note the main forum is still entitled "Boston Celtics 2008-2009." 2009-2010 has yet to arrive apparently... if anyone still cared.
Wonderful format though 2 years ago IMHO. Lots of work I am sure trying to maintain the website and keep it civil. Needs real, strong leadership at the top.
And yes I would pay/invest to play and yes I would volunteer. I really learned a lot about bb and found it very stimulating... and I do miss it. Sorry it died underneath me. But rigor mortis set in.
Thanks for the helpful comment, Raj. Sounds like a sad situation over there. Obviously, whether a blog or a message board is involved, it's not likely to flourish without the continued focus of the founder.
Sam
Sam:
I wonder if the founder over at C-N Forum might be interested in allowing new management to takeover this site. The posters were very good at one point and the founder is obviously busy with other matters.
Sam
I too feel a bit of a pause from the initial couple of days.
Whatever is decided by you and or the group, you have to let this (your blog) play out at least until a couple games into the regular season. Then we'll have a better perspective if continuing in this mode will work.
Now on to your questions:
1. Do you think a message board would offer YOU sufficiently more than the blog for me to go to the time and effort to establish a message board?
The message board will offer the quick exchanges that are not possible on a blog. Different subject matters all going on at the same time. No brainer for me a message board done right of course, is the best way to go.
Question 2:
2. Do you think the main reason to consider joining a Sam's Miessage Board would be enhanced civility, or could you envision other ways in which it might be superior to Boston.com? (And, if the latter, can you explain how?)
Sam there are times when I go to BDC in the morning and see the list of recent posters on the various threads and they are all people I have on ignore. They (trolls) have infested the BDC site to such a degree that although this may sound simple, it's just not fun anymore.
No, I don't want a bland vanilla flavored board either, with all of us sitting around a campfire holding hands and singing kum by ya either.
The fact is BDC is doing nothing to protect it's very own site. It's allowing things that were never an issue back when I started posting.
I know you, I trust your judgement of what should be deleted and what should be allowed. Laker fans can certainly have an opinion here and I'm sure a reasonable fan of there's can and should be allowed on your site, If they occasionally cross the line I think we can all handle that, but when occasional turns into virtually every post they need to be suspended or banned. Perhaps if this endeavor takes off, a clear understanding of violations and appropriate punishments should be listed.
Should there be more than just you with the power to ban/suspend?
Perhaps.
Maybe if it got to the point that you wanted/needed imput of a particular tough call, a select panel could help you out with a final decision.
Question 3: Paying?
Nothing is really free anyway. Yeah I haven't paid a cent for being on BDC but it has cost me time which is fine, but headaches too, which is not.
When I joined the BDC board nearly 2 years ago it was to share my love of the Celtics that has gone on for over 40 years. I've met great people with whom to share this passion, many face to face. I would hate losing any of these people comming to your board becaus they feel they can't or won't pay (to play) so to speak. Would I have joined BDC 2 years ago if they had charged a fee? Probably not,
Would I pay 25 bucks NOW to have a site like BDC was 2 years ago?
In a heart(BEAT) pun intended.
Would the time it would take you to run this be worth it?
Remember this, that there truly are only a few trolls that have gone over the top rope. Once you have flushed them out and make it all but impossible for them to return as something/someone else then policing the board should be much easier. Plus with only good/fair/quality posting it might just police itself with very minimal overseeing. Troll posters will know that their vile crap won't be allowed up front and might just go elsewhere.
I know you have been with BDC much longer than I. I have no feeling good or bad about going somewhere else. I just want a place to share the C's and other stuff with my seen and unseen freinds without having to worry about using the words butt or crap.
Long winded I know, but hopefully a bit helpful.
Hope i didn't leave any hanging chads.
beat
Beat,
The thing that bothers me most about a blog is that the main value is determined very largely by the principal blogger. And increased efforts by the principal blogger to add value don't necessarily increase the likelihood of participation by lurkers. All they have to do is read.
In contrast, the essence of a message board is to invite responses and dialog. I could put the same effort and make the same posts in a message board as in the blog. But (1) I'd be sharing that effort with other posters, which would enhance the diversity of the perspectives; (2) the give-and-take of the message board would invite greater participation; and (3) people would have greater choice of threads on which to participate in a message board than on a blog (where all but the most recent thread tend to get hidden and forgotten).
I understand and appreciate Dslack's points about quality and value, and the easier course of action for me would be to stick with the blog. But the quality or creativity of my inputs wouldn't be reduced in a message board. In fact, I could probably initiate more posts on a message board without the appearance of monopolizing the site. In effect, I could have several of my own threads working at the same time, rather than just one visible thread and several forgotten threads.
As for the cost, we've all heard that Boston.com may be charging soon. (I don't know how much or whether it's true for certain.) I don't necessarily want to put a lot of effort into a blog that people subscribe to mainly because it's a bargain. If the quality and civility aren't sufficiently unique or significant to be worth an annual fee equivalent to the cost of a movie, popcorn, and MAYBE a drink, it suggests the venture is just another commodity.
Not an easy decision.
Thanks again for your comments,
Sam
pretty sure i am the newest one to all this. i haven't tried out other boards or blogs, just BDC and here. while thinking about your questions I've read the comments here and your replies.
thanks first of all for your energy and initiative on this project. it will take someone with your kind of leadership and base of knnowledge/content to make either a blog or board work, and i'm glad you're willing and glad i get to be part of it.
1- limited experience, but i like the message board better. i agree that it would be easier for you to participate without seeming to take it over, with that appearance the blog format presents.
BTW, your earlier judgment was that a msg board would mean to you that you'd have to drop your participation from BDC entirely, because you'd be a direct competitor with them. i'd say so what? I don't see the foundation for the mandate to retire from BDC myself, and think that'd be a shame but i could be missing something obvious, and of course it's just your call anyway.
2- sure, a primary reason is civility. respect between posters. i liked the idea that it perhaps needn't be only celtic fans, but basketball fans who respect the game and each other. i also liked the idea of growing participation by linking with other blogs, and i suppose that could apply to the site if it were a message board as well.
could it be an improvement over BDC, besides civility, and how? i think there could be opportunity for that. i think it might just emerge with experience. i don't know what the old BDC format was, that someone preferred over their current one, but better format could be a consideration.
3- paying $25/year for it. wouldn't the figure depend on numbers of participants? you probably had some such number in mind to generate the $25 proposal, but i think price point matters, in terms of how much appeal it would have: how much money for how much value. i'd have to say i'd be happier with a $15 fee, especially if it's to be yearly. but probably i'd join in for $25 for a year to see what happens.
and i'd be happy to volunteer some, too, if that might be helpful. i don't know as much about basketball as some others may, but i have other skills that could be useful to a moderator.
thanks for putting the growing pains' questions out there for comment; i definitely think it can grow given the right format and your leadership.
forgot the check the email comments to me box ...
Sam,
Regarding your questions...
1. Do you think a message board would offer YOU sufficiently more than the blog for me to go to the time and effort to establish a message board?
The short answer is "Yes." The longer answer is "Heck, yes." Okay, here's the longer answer -- a message board allows for multiple discussions by a community, and it allows for a thread to survive as long as it remains active. I think that second point is particularly important, because some threads percolate over several days and gain momentum. It also allows someone like myself who doesn't visit the site every day to participate in a discussion that began a couple of days or even a week prior. Whether this benefit justifies you spending the time and effort to maintain a message board is up to you.
But I've been thinking. (I know that's dangerous, but I can't help myself.) You asked previously if there was something you could do to add value to the blog, and I think there is -- your cornucopia of Celtic and general basketball knowledge. You have a wealth of material from your postings at BDC plus other material, and you could use the blog as a more full-featured site that could allow visitors to access that material. I'm a technical writer, but my degree is in creative writing, and I've thought of putting together a site sometime as a way to self-publish some creative offerings (I don't think many people want to browse through my procedure manuals). You could expand the blog to serve a similar purpose for you, and that would be something that a BDC-style forum couldn't offer. However, if you could have that PLUS the forum, well... that's a winner.
2. Do you think the main reason to consider joining a Sam's Message Board would be enhanced civility, or could you envision other ways in which it might be superior to Boston.com? (And, if the latter, can you explain how?)
As far as any advantage your message board might have over BDC, there's civility, which is a big one. I've visited my share of sites and message boards over the years, and they were lacking in knowledgeable posters and overrun with infantile schoolyard taunting and insults. When I first visited the BDC Celtic forum a year and a half ago, it was a welcome revelation because it had good discussions and a minimum of the bad stuff. But it's not that way any more. As I stated on another comment, unless things change, I'm done with BDC.
In addition to civility, there's the possibility of using the site to provide access to your historical basketball material, which I mentioned previously. That would be a big plus over BDC.
BDC isn't my ideal site, and despite the quality of the posts by you and others, Sam's blog or message board won't be either, because they're Celtic fan sites. There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's just that my ideal site would be a team-neutral basketball site with lively, civil discussions by knowledgeable posters. I haven't found one yet, and so I'm sticking with the best substitute, which happens to be Celtic-centric. I can live with that if you can live with me.
3. If I started a message board, would you be confident enough in its potential to take a chance and pay $25 for the first year (via Paypal) to join? (The plan would be to charge $25 per year, subject to change with inflation. Note that I'm not considering any revenue alternative such as advertising for the reasons stated above. It's either charge $25 per member per year or forget it.)
I'd like to say yes, but I'm not totally sure about that. Money is tight in our household, my job situation is in flux, and I'm watching where each dollar goes. It's only $25, which is a good value for what you'd provide, but realistically, it wouldn't be the smart thing for me to do at this time. If my situation were a little better, I'd have no problem with it.
Something else I'll add about paying --
I'm kind of a fuddy duddy and set in my ways. My ways include: I don't pay for internet content, but I will sometimes pay to support something I enjoy or appreciate. There are a variety of websites that I frequent to which I occasionally donate money when they request such donations in order to support continued content of the sort that I value. I also donate money to PBS.
If you were to start a website and then, having produced a product that I have used and valued, you were to ask for donations, I'd almost certainly donate. But something just feels kind of strange to me about paying upfront for a website that I don't know if I'd use.
I also think that asking for donations is a bit more fair. People then will donate according to their ability. College students on limited income might donate $5; wealthier Celtics fans who want to help out a lot might donate significantly more than $25.
So, just to be clear, I'm not saying I'll never pay for content. I'm not even saying at this point that I'll never pay up-front for content. But I think it's unlikely that I'd pay up-front.
Sam, while some of longer term members of the group may have a more meaningful input, I would be pleased to respond to your questions.
QUESTION #1- Do you think a message board would offer YOU sufficiently more than the blog for me to go to the time and effort to establish a message board?
RESPONSE- I do participate in a number of "blog" based boards related to career issues and have found most of them are a one-way informative communication. The blogs are used to update the members/readers on mutually interesting subjects. Nothing wrong with that if one is simply looking for information and general overviews on certain subjects. As an example, CNN's "In Session" group has a blog that updates key trial events. There are some comments posted by the readers, however the "blog's" purpose is really to communicate information to the members. You are doing a good job with your "commentary posts" on this site. However, given the failed management of BDC to properly manage that message board, I would prefer Sam’s Site to convert to a message board.
QUESTION #2.- Do you think the main reason to consider joining a Sam's Message Board would be enhanced civility, or could you envision other ways in which it might be superior to Boston.com? (And, if the latter, can you explain how?
RESPONSE #2- Yes, the main reason to join another message board such as the one you are thinking about would be "civility". It takes too much work on a poster’s part to keep civility on BDC. Given their continued desire to solicit fans from all parts of the country for ad and revenue purposes of the Boston Globe, I doubt they will be motivated to remove abusive “Celtic haters” any time soon. Therefore, finding a civil place to share Celtic thoughts and memories would be my main priority.
QUESTION #3. If I started a message board, would you be confident enough in its potential to take a chance and pay $25 for the first year (via Paypal) to join? (The plan would be to charge $25 per year, subject to change with inflation. Note that I'm not considering any revenue alternative such as advertising for the reasons stated above. It's either charge $25 per member per year or forget it.)
RESPONSE #3- I would gladly pay a fee of $25 for your site development. Not because there is not other options for to join free message sites, but because I believe you have been a very loyal follower and friend to the Celtic organization, the city of Boston, and to the group of “followers” that you have created. Therefore, I would support your efforts from a financial and assistance standpoint.
Continued good luck with whatever decision you make.
David
Many thanks for all your extremely thoughtful insights. I happened to be at a bar tonight. Watching the bartender mixing and shaking ingredients made me reflect on all the "ingredients" you've given me.
There is every possibility that their very diversity could make the decision more complex. But that's not the case. I believe it's been crystalized.
I think what I'm going to do is the following:
1. Start a Sam's Boston Celtics Message Board after a format test. Multiple threads started by anyone; game previews; game-on threads; game analyses; news; etc. Guaranteed civility. The cost would be $25 a year. (I know few college students who don't pay $25+ for numerous one-time social activities. At the same time, I could certainly understand if someone didn't want to take a leap of faith in the quality of the board based on my track record in both posting and leadership.)
2. Retain the blog (probably altering the name) and turn it into a sort of combination archival and discussion site on Celtics history/tradition and appreciation of the game of basketball more generally. No charge for this one. Guaranteed civility. Among other things, the blog would give me an opportunity to archive and discuss some of my writing and observations on the Russell/Havlicek years; and maybe others would want to contribute insights on other eras. I could envision periodic book reviews and a number of interesting features.
At least that's the way I'm thinking right now. I'll sleep on it, and maybe you'll have some additional feedback on this latest perspective. And there are obviously numerous details to work out.
Thanks again for all the assistance.
Sam
Sam, I have just come back from a weekend away, and caught up with your comments.
As far as creating a message board, it might be a good thing. The give and take of a quick answer to a question might keep the board moving along. As you remember, there were some topics that went on for pages and pages on BDC. I would also like not having to deal on a day to day basis with people who hate the Celtics and can't wait for failure. I would assume there would be zapping of those people. I have so many people on ignore on BDC that it is no fun to go there any more.
Keeping the current board moving along will be a project for you or anyone who undertakes it. Answering questions can sometimes become time consuming. We certainly wouldn't want to burn you or anyone else out. I hope participation from other writers would help you out.
Thanks Rosalie. I'm not too worried about burnout. After an introductory period, the main work on the the message board should be moderating and the fun of posting my own thoughts.
And, as for continuing the blog, I imagine that would proceed at a more moderate pace, with an occasional new submission by someone else or myself.
Fortunately, I type quickly. If only I could think quickly.
Sam
Sam etal,
I greatly appreciate the civility and have been posting less at BDC precisely because of the diminishment of that (the negligible basketball IQ of the Faker trolls too).
I think a message board format would be better because people can choose what the want to talk about, either by initiating a thread or responding to one. It seems the back-and-forth here seems to all springboard off of the original thread despite Sam's call for us to propose our own.
I tend to agree with DSlack. If the website is working, I'd contribute.
bob
Sam,
I haven't been following closely either BDC or your new blog here, as I've been quite busy.
I've found the format of "blogs" is a bit hard to follow, though that probably is due to my not being on blogs much and not feeling comfortable with their flow, yet.
My short answer is if you are thinking of developing a message board, count me in and I'll pay the $25 or so. The opportunity to participate in a civil message board is a great idea.
Thanks for all you do.
BobC
Bob,
Short answers are fine with me. I hope your busy life is rewarding in terms of either money or fun or both.
Thanks a lot,
Sam
Bob,
Sure...Play all summer and get the handicap down. Now you've got to go to work.
Regards
Sam,
You've got my thoughts in my earlier email and I think I've got that user ID solved.
I do think there might be a real core group of fans with good insight to start a message board. Some added members might gravitate over from the Globe board but that's just the natural order of things; those that are genuine in their intent will pursue the best outlet for an exchange of thoughts.
...and yes I'm jealous that Bob got to play more golf than I did this year.
Regards
I did play the most I have in many years, but alas the clubs are in the cellar.
2010 we will play!
Bob,
We sincerely need to arrange that come spring!
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